Tag: John Hays

Patrick (PA) related to John (VA) related to Patrick (VA)????

Just as we almost all go back to a common ancestor in Africa 60,000 years ago I am beginning to wonder if there is common Hays ancestor of the Ulster Scot Presbyterian Hays’ who migrated first to Pennsylvania, then VA and ultimately TN and KY when the Cumberland Gap opened.  Naming patterns common the Ulster Scots are used here also to assume relation.  The 1st born male was usually named for the Paternal Grandfather, 2nd for the Maternal Grandfather, 3rd & 4th after an uncle.  The name of a child who died in infancy was often used again in the same family.  “Nephew” in written records refers to Grandsons and it wasn’t until around the Revolutionary war that we begin to see middle names used and the addition of a Sr or Jr. and “Grandson” used. 

FamilyTreeDNA offers Y-DNA tests with 12, 25, 37, 67, 111 markers, and Big Y-700 (which doesn’t give you a probability for relationships (more later).  I recently received my “Big Y-700” test results back and the listed most common ancestor for those I match with are both Patrick Hays of PA and John Hays of VA, assuming their posted family trees are correct.  The Big y test showed a close match with JBH who identified Patrick Hays (PA) as the Earliest Known Ancestor (EKN) and we have a common Y-DNA Haplogroup of R-FT115175.  The 111 test shows a JSH (R-M269) with a genetic distance of 5 related to Patrick Hays and JBH again with a genetic distance of 6. The 67 marker shows JSH at a genetic distance of 3, EGH (R-M269) with a genetic distance of 3 and the EKA as John Hays, 1752 Rockbridge, VA.  (initials of people used to politely mask identities).

As I understand it (remember I am an amateur!, go to https://isogg.org, International Society of Genetic Genealogy for more), the Genetic Distance is the number of differences in a tested marker, Short Tandem Repeat (STR) and the test number is the number of markers tested.  The Big Y looks at 700 STR’s and also tests Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNP, “snips”) which help identify paternal lineages 10-20 generations back.  For example, there are 15 markers between me and my closest match, JSH (R-M269) as I took a larger test.  Again ISOGG and FTDNA have much more information on these (and other DNA) topics.

The records (Chalkley) show a John Hays (wife Rebecca) and children self importing to Rockbridge, VA in 1740 and on the same day a Patrick Hays (wife Frances) with children.  John Hays also has grown sons who arrived in VA the same time as he did.  Many sites suspect these two are brothers which is incorrect (IMHO).  The Bibliographic Encyclopedia of Dauphin County, PA (Encyclopedia) show that a Patrick Hays (wife Jean) arrived in Derry PA with his brother Hugh, William, and James.  Patrick (PA) and Patrick (VA) having different wives and children names obviously aren’t the same person.  So what is the relationship between the three and can my DNA test help?

Biographical Encyclopedia of Dauphin County, PA

Patrick (PA) was born in 1705 in County Donnegal, Ireland and came to PA in 1728 with his brothers.  It is quite possible that other Hays’ came at the same time, remember, it was not uncommon for nearly the entire Church memberships or villages to leave for the Americas at the same time on the same ship, or perhaps they came shortly after with Patrick (PA) as as a stopping off point.  Beverly Manor (1736) and the Borden Grant (1739) hadn’t been open to settlement yet.  It also appears that Patrick (PA), John (VA) and Patrick (VA) were men of some means as they paid their passage (most came over indentured, more on that in a later blog) and could afford to purchase land.  PA offered 50 acres to each man under the headlight system but much of the available good farm land was taken and more expensive to buy.  The Borden Grant offered 100 acres for self importers (you had to put up a cabin and settle) and each 100 acres for a shilling.     

Biographical Encyclopedia of Dauphin County, PA

By my calculations I estimate that John (VA) and Patrick (PA) are 8 generation from me (possibly 9).  My closest match at 111 markers, JSH shows Patrick (PA) as EKA and the comparison chart estimates that there is a 76.48% probability and at 67 markers a 85.82% probability.  EGH who has John (VA) as her EKA also has a 67 marker 85.82% probability.   MBH at 67 shows a 51.48% probability and at 111 a 61.51% probability at 8 generations.  I’m not sure why the percentages move like they do and I’ll need to do more research on that.  The fact that my closest match JBH has a lower probability leads me to believe that my line does not go through John (VA) or Patrick (PA) Hays and might go through Patrick (VA) or another Hays related to him.  At 10 generations JSH is at (111) 89.48 and (67) 93.34, JBH is (111) 79.93% and (67) 69.62, and EGH (67) is 93.34.  At 12 generation EGH is (67) 97.09%, JSH is (111) 95.74%, and JBH (111) is 90.67%.     

Using the name patterns common to Ulster Scots I see that Patrick (PA) has Brothers Hugh, William, and James and his son’s are (in birth order) David, Robert, William, Samuel, and Patrick.  Patrick (VA) has sons named William and Samuel.  John (VA) has sons Andrew, Charles, John, and James (deceased by 1750) with Grandsons named James and John, Jr.  This indicates to me that Patrick (VA) is the nephew of Patrick (PA) with no indication if Hugh, William, or James is his father.  John (VA) and Patrick (PA) are not brothers and the lack of a common name in their family trees indicates that their relationship is further than their Grandfathers.  

 Patrick (PA) and John (VA) sit 8 generations from me, their Grandfathers 10 but it is at 12 generations that probabilities go above 90% for all connected to me on Family Tree DNA.  So going back to 12 generations from me to 1650 if A Hays had 4 sons (1675) and each of them had 4 sons (1700) which includes the about year that John (VA) and Patrick (PA) were born the two of them would have 64 cousins.  And given the fact that the Ulster Scots in northern Ireland stayed among themselves due to their Presbyterian religion and that they came over to America in bulk, and given the DNA probabilities, it is highly likely that there is a Common Ancestor about the 1650’s.  

But given the lack of records prior to and into the 1700’s which can identify people and their relation to each other and given the fact that the Hays, after arriving in PA in the early 1700’s spread out to new territories as the nation expanded, being among the first pioneers to settle Greene, TN (closely following the Wautauga Settlement in 1776), among the original settlers of the Cumberland Settlement (1779, Nashville), and 1775 blazing the Wilderness Road through the Cumberland Gap into Kentucky and settling there, the record will end before we get to Northern Ireland and we’ll have to rely on DNA to finish the story.  To this end I encourage everyone to get their Y-DNA done at Family Tree DNA, https://www.familytreedna.com/, and find your relatives and ancestors there.  

My line going backwards has a James, Thomas Jefferson (obvious where that came from), Robert Alexander, William A., George, and William b. 1773 in Rockbridge, VA d. 1857 Greene, TN and that last is my wall (for now).  Patrick (PA) and Patrick (VA) both have William in their line so name matching has me suspect my line is through Patrick (PA) or one of his brothers (a father to Patrick (VA).  But only field research and luck will confirm this.

And the historical research continues.

More on DNA and genealogy

First, if you want to learn about DNA and genealogy an in depth source of information is the International Society Of Genetic Genealogy.

In “Evidence” on this site I discuss levels of proof that evidence leads us to and also that the evidence needs to be taken in totality and it is often the lack of considering all evidence (totality) that incorrect conclusions are drawn. While the DNA test is accurate, in the application of genealogy it is used to compare our DNA to others with the same or similar DNA markers. As such there is no “Scot DNA” or “Ulster DNA” which can put your ancestors in a specific spot at a specific time. Our ancestors migrated west into Europe 25,000 years ago and moved into Scotland in waves after the last ice age, some migrating back east, north, and south over time.

Often DNA is a close match but the person can be removed from consideration in your family tree due to a different surname. It is the DNA match AND surname similarity which provides the higher percentage of a recent common ancestor. As the number of people getting their DNA tested increases, and more corroborating information is shared the value and accuracy of the information will increase.

Many of us in North America look back to our country of origin when researching our roots and identify as “insert country from-American”. But in that country of origin there was also a path of settlement. In The Scots: A Genetic Journey Alistair Moffat (A must read) points out that prior to the migration to the Americas in the 16th century Scotland was the end of the western migration and that migration started after the last ice age and came in waves by several distinct tribes and different societies. I recommend this book as it not only discusses DNA but also covers hunter-gatherer settlement, the development of farming, and also historical languages.

In 10 generations you can have 1024 possible contributors to your DNA and this brings us back only to our ancestors in Scotland. To try to explain where your DNA came from Family Tree breaks it down into your “Origins” as defined by the current nations and “Ancient Origins” as defined by historical society groups in time. My origins show me 59% British (which includes Scotland), 27% Scandinavian, 8% Eastern Europe, and 4% Iberian Peninsula. My ancient break down is 43% Hunter-Gatherer society, 42% Farmer society, and 15% Metal Age Invaders society. The Scots: A Genetic Journey has a nice break down of the Hunter-gatherer, farmer, and metal worker migrations into Scotland and why my DNA shows these roots.

In my last post “the value of Y-DNA” I discussed “Nicholas Hays” whose ancestors genealogy research indicated they were from the Irish Clan “Hayes”. I have since found a site of an ancestor, Curtis Hays, who had DNA done. While his DNA ruled out relation to the Irish Clan he erroneously concludes he was not related to Clan Hay due to his DNA roots (Slav-Kurgen). Reading “The Scots” shows that this DNA is from areas that migrated into England and Scotland.

Further, who he settled with indicates a kith or kin relationship and this was ignored. While Nicholas Hays may not have a very similar DNA to John (or Patrick) Hays (a fact I am not sure of as I haven’t compared them) his settling with Ulster Presbyterians and migrating with them indicates a connection to Clan Hay. I am unsure of his religion but the books handed down at his passing were consistent with Presbyterianism. The saying that birds of a feather flock together is true for humans also. The common spelling of the surname adds to the evidence.

There are 11 listed Hay settlements, 4 in the southern lowlands of Scotland on the Clan map (top). As surnames were being adopted in the 16th century and commonly used often persons would use the Clan name. I have also found several references in 1700 Presbyterian books of the Hays being a part of that religion. My Hays ancestors are buried in a Presbyterian Church grave yard in Greene, TN. The “Hays” families who migrated to VA through PA then on to what is now Greene, TN and across that state and we can reasonably believe that the Ulstermen who migrated originally from the Scottish lowlands and were affiliated with a branch of the Clan Hay which are further back in time affiliated with the Earl of Errol’s Clan Hay.

When your Y-DNA is done it is matched with those similar to you and each person can list an “Earliest Known Ancestor”. I have corresponded with several persons who have claimed their ancestry back to Patrick Hays or John Hays both of whom settled on the Borden Land Grant in Virginia, Circa 1740 and the DNA indicates an 80% chance of a common ancestor in 10 generations, 90% at 12. My research ends at William Hays (8 generations from me) in Greene, TN. and although DNA indicates a relation to either John or Patrick I have not seen any record linking them to William Hays and then to me. The DNA has, however given me direction on where to look for the connection. I am hopeful at some point to get confirmation of the connection from a DNA Cousin.

One person shows the Earliest Known Ancestor as Sir John Hay of Tullibody d. 1418 and another shows William delaHaye (1120-1170) Lothian, Scotland. Again I have no evidence to connect the “Hays” line to William dela Haye. That said, about 1500 years ago “Expansion Clusters” began to form. These were due to increasing wealth and political power of a family offering social selection and breeding advantages and men having children with multiple women over many years. A man with 10 sons who then have ten sons has 100 related men affiliated with his Clan Banner. So while not proven on paper, it is quite possible.

Many people have listed John and Patrick Hays as brothers, and one source states that 7 Hays brothers (including them) arrived in a span of 6 years. It appears the father of the 7 brothers who migrated here, each having a large farm family (as subsequent sons did), created a bit of a DNA Expansion Cluster in America. It is confusing as whole church congregations migrated at the same time with entire families of Hays included with them. The other Hays from various parts of Ulster, many most likely with a common Hay ancestor in Scotland, dispersed across Northern Ireland where opportunity took them for several generations and then clustered together in America where opportunity and a shared belief system brought them together.

I suspect this is the story of the John and Patrick Hays brothers and Nicholas Hays. A Patrick Hays migrated to present day Derry, PA and owned land there. I suspect he was the advance for the rest of his brothers. Patrick and John both took land grants in 1740 in Virginia on the Borden Grant in the Shenandoah Valley which were given to families which “self imported” (paid their own fare over). Nicholas Hays entered as an indentured servant to a tailor in Philadelphia in 1745. From there he migrated to VA. While Patrick Hays returned to PA it appears his, and his brothers ancestors, migrated to Greene, TN which was on the western edge of the new nation. Nicholas was to also migrate there with his family.

The various Hays families participated in the French and Indian Wars and then the Revolutionary War on the side of the Colonials and in fact the Presbyterian Ulstermen (Scotch-Irish as they had come to be called) had few Tories in their ranks. Many were paid in land grants, often on the western front. As the country expanded they expanded also and played a part in history in the formation of Kentucky, Missouri, Kansas, Texas, and all the way to California. Hopefully DNA and the historical record can help us sort out the whose who of the Hays in America.